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	<title>Comments on: Hunt for hifi X: There are ten types of people who understand binary…</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/</link>
	<description>Poorly filtered brain leakage</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 18 May 2010 17:51:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ola</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Ola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Excellent digging - This&#039;ll make for good couch reading tonight. Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent digging &#8211; This&#8217;ll make for good couch reading tonight. Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Mattias</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Mattias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-38</guid>
		<description>Here are some stuff...

An article in Swedish about digitalization and the sinc function: http://www.lts.a.se/artiklar/sincen.pdf

A discussion in Swedish on a forum about filters and pre-ringing: http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&amp;file=viewtopic&amp;p=251444</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are some stuff&#8230;</p>
<p>An article in Swedish about digitalization and the sinc function: <a href="http://www.lts.a.se/artiklar/sincen.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.lts.a.se/artiklar/sincen.pdf</a></p>
<p>A discussion in Swedish on a forum about filters and pre-ringing: <a href="http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&amp;file=viewtopic&amp;p=251444" rel="nofollow">http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&amp;file=viewtopic&amp;p=251444</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mattias</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Mattias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Please do! I am not an expert on this, far from it, so this is very benificial for me, too. It&#039;s alwas interesting to try to explain things you think you know. :-)

Basically, I think that most A/D-D/As are conceived with the assumption of the sinc, although there may be exceptions to this. With digital filters, I think the pre-ringing is no problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please do! I am not an expert on this, far from it, so this is very benificial for me, too. It&#8217;s alwas interesting to try to explain things you think you know. :-)</p>
<p>Basically, I think that most A/D-D/As are conceived with the assumption of the sinc, although there may be exceptions to this. With digital filters, I think the pre-ringing is no problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Ola</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Ola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-36</guid>
		<description>My follow-up questions are forking in an ever-widening delta right now, so I&#039;ll do some reading and perhaps make a proper post on this combined with some other A/D things I&#039;ve been contemplating, such as how the hell Meridians 808.2 CD player can filter out pre-ringing that is from the A/D process.

Basically, how can the D/A can know how the A/D was made? Jitter is just one issue of many here, and I&#039;m starting to think this filtering business will prove very interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My follow-up questions are forking in an ever-widening delta right now, so I&#8217;ll do some reading and perhaps make a proper post on this combined with some other A/D things I&#8217;ve been contemplating, such as how the hell Meridians 808.2 CD player can filter out pre-ringing that is from the A/D process.</p>
<p>Basically, how can the D/A can know how the A/D was made? Jitter is just one issue of many here, and I&#8217;m starting to think this filtering business will prove very interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Mattias</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Mattias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Sorry, x is &quot;2*pi*f*t&quot;. The time t is the variable, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, x is &#8220;2*pi*f*t&#8221;. The time t is the variable, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Mattias</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Mattias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-34</guid>
		<description>You could see &quot;x&quot; as 2*pi*f, where f is the highest allowed frequency, which is 22,05 kHz for the CD system. The curve is also the look of the signal out of the filter if the signal in is a delta function, that is, an ideal pulse. So, if the pulse is situated exactly on a sampling point, after the filter it will have the value &quot;1&quot; in this point and &quot;0&quot; in all other sampling points (crossing the x axel at zero). If the pulse is situated between sampling points, after the filter it will have defined values in a number of sampling points - it is not approximations, but exact values, that will recreate the original signal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could see &#8220;x&#8221; as 2*pi*f, where f is the highest allowed frequency, which is 22,05 kHz for the CD system. The curve is also the look of the signal out of the filter if the signal in is a delta function, that is, an ideal pulse. So, if the pulse is situated exactly on a sampling point, after the filter it will have the value &#8220;1&#8243; in this point and &#8220;0&#8243; in all other sampling points (crossing the x axel at zero). If the pulse is situated between sampling points, after the filter it will have defined values in a number of sampling points &#8211; it is not approximations, but exact values, that will recreate the original signal.</p>
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		<title>By: Ola</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Ola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Ah, very interesting!

I was not aware that there was filtering at this step; I have only read up on D/A, not A/D. I have some work to do…

I am somehat confused by the Wikipedia graph though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sinc_function_%28both%29.svg

Wouldn&#039;t this indicate that the resulting signal, which is to be digitized, is in effect detuned from the original signal? The red line has different frequencies, and it&#039;s not halved either. I&#039;m in over my head now, but in this exampe it looks as though this particular filter implementation would be detrimental to the music rather than helping the listener approximate signal data in between sample points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, very interesting!</p>
<p>I was not aware that there was filtering at this step; I have only read up on D/A, not A/D. I have some work to do…</p>
<p>I am somehat confused by the Wikipedia graph though:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sinc_function_%28both%29.svg" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sinc_function_%28both%29.svg</a></p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t this indicate that the resulting signal, which is to be digitized, is in effect detuned from the original signal? The red line has different frequencies, and it&#8217;s not halved either. I&#8217;m in over my head now, but in this exampe it looks as though this particular filter implementation would be detrimental to the music rather than helping the listener approximate signal data in between sample points.</p>
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		<title>By: Mattias</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Mattias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-32</guid>
		<description>Here is more on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinc_filter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is more on wikipedia: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinc_filter" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinc_filter</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mattias</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Mattias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-31</guid>
		<description>&quot;I appreciate the discussion and would like to emphasize that I desire to learn the truth, rather than to claim I already know the truth.&quot;

That was my impression from reading this site, otherwise I wouldn&#039;t have bothered. :-)

&quot;But what you are saying is that B is a representation of everything that happened between these two tics, and that a transient at +20 between A and B would have given B another value even if the amplitude was at the equivalent of 5 for that clock tick.

If this is what you mean...&quot;

Well, not quite. The point is that the analog signal is filtered through a sinc filter (and thus transformed) BEFORE it is sampled. Imagine an very (infinitely, you migh say) narrow pulse between two sampling points. This would indeed be &quot;invisible&quot; for the sampling function. But since it is first sinc filtered, it is transformed into another shape (see the curve on the wiki page), and this curve has values ON the sample points, and so it is &quot;visible&quot;.

It is not easy to explain in words only. I have some links to quite informative articles, if you are interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I appreciate the discussion and would like to emphasize that I desire to learn the truth, rather than to claim I already know the truth.&#8221;</p>
<p>That was my impression from reading this site, otherwise I wouldn&#8217;t have bothered. :-)</p>
<p>&#8220;But what you are saying is that B is a representation of everything that happened between these two tics, and that a transient at +20 between A and B would have given B another value even if the amplitude was at the equivalent of 5 for that clock tick.</p>
<p>If this is what you mean&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, not quite. The point is that the analog signal is filtered through a sinc filter (and thus transformed) BEFORE it is sampled. Imagine an very (infinitely, you migh say) narrow pulse between two sampling points. This would indeed be &#8220;invisible&#8221; for the sampling function. But since it is first sinc filtered, it is transformed into another shape (see the curve on the wiki page), and this curve has values ON the sample points, and so it is &#8220;visible&#8221;.</p>
<p>It is not easy to explain in words only. I have some links to quite informative articles, if you are interested.</p>
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		<title>By: Ola</title>
		<link>http://ukiro.com/2009/09/21/hunt-for-hifi-x-there-are-ten-types-of-people-who-understand-binary%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Ola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukiro.com/?p=77#comment-30</guid>
		<description>Ah, I think I&#039;m beginning to see what you&#039;re referring to. Let me know if I understand you right:

Lest say an analog signal results in sample points A, B and C (a very short signal, in order to simplify this argument). These have amplitudes of 0, 5 and -4 respectively. What I was saying is that sample point B, with a value of 5, would be 5 regardless of what happened in the analog domain between the clock tics at sample points A and B. But what you are saying is that B is a representation of everything that happened between these two tics, and that a transient at +20 between A and B would have given B another value even if the amplitude was at the equivalent of 5 for that clock tick.

If this is what you mean, I understand your argument but I&#039;m still very skeptical: A sonic event between two sample points at 44,1kHz would by definition be above 22,05kHz, wouldn&#039;t it? And as such irretrievable from the data, just as the 30kHz tone in my example. 

I am unfortunately no mathematician (as I ended up following the desires of the right side of my brain instead), so the Wikipedia article is a little difficult to digest. Nonetheless, I appreciate the discussion and would like to emphasize that I desire to learn the truth, rather than to claim I already know the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, I think I&#8217;m beginning to see what you&#8217;re referring to. Let me know if I understand you right:</p>
<p>Lest say an analog signal results in sample points A, B and C (a very short signal, in order to simplify this argument). These have amplitudes of 0, 5 and -4 respectively. What I was saying is that sample point B, with a value of 5, would be 5 regardless of what happened in the analog domain between the clock tics at sample points A and B. But what you are saying is that B is a representation of everything that happened between these two tics, and that a transient at +20 between A and B would have given B another value even if the amplitude was at the equivalent of 5 for that clock tick.</p>
<p>If this is what you mean, I understand your argument but I&#8217;m still very skeptical: A sonic event between two sample points at 44,1kHz would by definition be above 22,05kHz, wouldn&#8217;t it? And as such irretrievable from the data, just as the 30kHz tone in my example. </p>
<p>I am unfortunately no mathematician (as I ended up following the desires of the right side of my brain instead), so the Wikipedia article is a little difficult to digest. Nonetheless, I appreciate the discussion and would like to emphasize that I desire to learn the truth, rather than to claim I already know the truth.</p>
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